I’m not sure this parsing is useful, anyhow. Eternal Torment proponents have to reconcile these seemingly irreconcilable verses in strange ways, but Conditionalism offers the most straightforward answer: the wicked are utterly destroyed in eternal fire in the presence of God (thus satisfying all scriptures that refer to fire and also the annihilation of the wicked), which results in complete darkness for them and non-existence - like a … It never rises to 100% in any given time period (or libertarian freedom would be violated) but it approaches closer to 100% the further down the time tunnel one peers. But where traditionalists and universalists agree against conditionalists is where they affirm immortality for everyone. Those two positions have very useful descriptors. So long as it is true that one cannot be saved without repentance and faith, these are conditions for immortality/eternal life, regardless of how many or few people meet the conditions. “Conditionalism” and “Conditional Immortality” have historically described the view; you can go back to at least the 19th century to see that this is the case. But where traditionalists and universalists agree against conditionalists is where they affirm immortality for everyone. If we all accept the idea that “immortality” is in Scripture a qualitative term, not just a descriptor of unending existence, then “conditional immortality” does not clearly distinguish among the options. There could be a period of time of suffering in hell before complete destruction. Thanks, Ronnie. By my lights, this is a de facto form of unconditional and universal immortality. This is not something that either Chris Date or Robin Parry asserted, but it appears to me to be true. Traditionalism has never affirmed conditional immortality historically as they have quite consistently referred to the wicked as being immortal in hell. Conditionalists begin with the premise that only God is inherently immortal. God“has made everything beautiful in its time. Perhaps, tormentforeverists? I recently subscribed to a new spam interceptor and I am still figuring out what it is doing. Of course, church tradition must bear appropriate weight in any theological discussion. reasons why “ultimate annihilationism” is a better name, Hypothetical Universalism in Paul’s Epistles, Incoherence in the Belgic Confession (1561), between its Christology and its Eschatology, Nicholas Ridley, the Oxford martyr, is part of my family story, In memory of J. I. Packer: A personal tribute, Relating to people who identify as LGBT+, with grace and truth, First and second death: similarities and differences, Melchizedek, Abraham, Muslims and worship of the One True God. . Eternal conscious torment benefits neither God nor the one being punished. Traditionalists assert that “immortality,” as Scripture speaks of it, namely, as God’s gift to those in Christ, synonymous with “eternal life” In that biblical sense, traditionalists do not assert that immortality is universal, but universalists do. ￪ For more on the broader debate about the language of life and death as applied to final judgment, see “Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism: Life and Death in the Bible” Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3. One quick thought about the term “annihilationism” in general: If that is to considered an appropriate term for our viewpoint, then “tormentalism” should be just as appropriate for traditionalism since the underlying focus is on the mode of punishment. ". In March, I gave some reasons why “ultimate annihilationism” is a better name for that position than “conditional immortality,” although the latter is widely used by proponents of this position. Gotta love technology! Traditionalism and universalism are alike in the sense of placing different qualities upon immortality (immortality in hell vs immortality in heaven), yet conditional immortality denies these premises altogether asserting that the human soul only becomes immortal in Christ and will perish if thrown into the lake of fire. On that scheme, everyone is under a death sentence and their permanent death is both imminent and guaranteed save for faith in Christ. 2020 Thoughts Theological, on Another reason why “annihilationism” is a better name than “conditionalism:” evangelical universalism is a form of conditionalism, The gospel for people who identify themselves by their sexuality. But, conditionalists affirm the annihilation of the wicked. According to Scripture, unbelievers are said to be destroyed; therefore, they will not exist anymore. We begin with conditionalism, which is sometimes referred to as annihilationism. It’s *additionally* that immortality will only be given to those who express faith in Christ, and that only some will do so. Hell may well be unique amongst Christian doctrines, if not for thelack of attention that it has received in the past decades, then for theunwillingness with which many orthodox Christians believe in it.Fundamentalists may preach vividly about the fires of hell, and liberals havelong heralded the downfall of eternal damnation, but what can we say about adoctrine which leaves many people highly embarrassed? What I came to see, while listening to Parry and Date, though this was not in either of their minds, is that all 3 of these alternative evangelical understandings of the nature of hell believe in conditional immortality, i.e. ", "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;", "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. “Tormentalism” doesn’t denote the unending nature of the punishment, so I don’t find it useful. Conditionalism is the state that awaits the redeemed; they are to receive immortality on the condition of their faith in Christ. For humans, immortality is God's conditional gift, bestowed at the resurrection but only to the redeemed. However much traditionalists might want to call hell a place of “death,” it’s in resurrected, living bodies that live for eternity–the very thing meant by “immortal.”. The 1980’s saw a remarkable rise in profile for the doctrine that immortality is bestowed. Sorry about that, Chris. Conditional immortality as a label became popular in the nineteenth century for its ability to more holistically describe a view many Christians know as annihilationism. Additionally, before I am called a “heretic” by those who hold to Traditionalism, Conditionalism is not a heretical position. Eternal conscious torment is not proportional to the finite sins committed by people. The problem that I see with “traditionalism” is that it doesn’t define the content. Historically, traditionalists and universalists have affirmed that human beings are immortal even before they are saved. And again, these statements are made with absolutely no qualifications of “of course, we’re using these expressions the way they’re normally used, not the way Scripture uses them.”. Were I to conclude tomorrow that annihilationism is the biblical position, that is the term I would use to describe my position, for the reasons I have enunciated. Already, however, in speaking of extinction we are passing beyond the limits of “conditionalism” pure and simple and entering the region of annihilationism proper. Its a very persuasive interpretation of scripture I think and I can understand why annhilationists are so confident of their stance. We’d like to think that we know the ending, but it’s not humanly possible to know the end of … The unsaved will be raised in shame and dishonor, to face God and receive the just condemnation for their sins. Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment Is the fire literal or figurative? You can be a universalist and maintain that the lost will be tormented forever, or that they will be annihilated (but that in fact everyone will be saved). The trick is getting it to imply perpetuity. Indeed, Constable argued that the doctrine of unconditional immortality is the spring from which the errors of both endless torment and universal reconciliation flow. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”", Revelation 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. , David, if only English were more agglutinative! What separates this view from the one that sees physical death as the point of annihilation is this: Conditionalists see a judgment of sinners, an assignment to hell, and then annihilation. Therefore, universalists could be annihilationists, too! If not, then it would appear that the term is helpful after all. In what has become somewhat of a slogan for defenders of traditionalism, he writes, “I believe in the immortality of human beings because the Bible clearly teaches everlasting damnation for the wicked and everlasting life for the righteous.”. What I am trying to do is to clarify for myself what I would mean if I concluded that (a form of) traditionalism is correct, and what I would mean if I concluded that (a form of) annihilationism is correct. By contrast, “conditional immortality” is unhelpful as a term for any of the three positions, because it could be applied to any one of them, depending on the meaning one assigns to “immortality.”. For the record, I don’t really prefer one term over the other. I think if we’re going to truly be consistent with focusing on the mode of punishment then we should call the three branches: tormentalism, annihilationism, and purificationism. This was, for the former, a major reason for the eternal torment of the lost: if they live forever, they must live forever somewhere. For instance Chris had quoted Robert Peterson but I can’t find that comment now, so it was obviously not the same as one for which I took it to be a duplicate. "...conditionalism emphasizes what awaits the redeemed, namely, eternal life and immortality...annihilationism is about what awaits the damned, namely, the eternal punishment of destruction in hell. God alone possesses immortality and the Bible only ascribes immortality to the redeemed. . Fascinatingly, the evangelical universalist understanding of that immortality which is conditioned on faith is the same as the traditionalist understanding of immortality: for both, immortality is eternal life, the gift that God only gives to those in Christ. If, over a given time period, the chances of a soul repenting are greater than 0% then, given infinite time, the chance rises to 100%. For you and for universalists, though, neither name is descriptive. the lost) will be tortured in Hell for a limited interval, and then totally destroyed. Your email address will not be published. It’s simple and biblical. But what distinguishes two of those positions is annihilation of the wicked and universal salvation, respectively. My statement had in mind the contemporary scene. Conditionalism and Universalism agree that all evil will one day be gone. Many of us appear to disagree with you concerning terminology, but that doesn’t change how we think of you. I’m pretty sure I’m not one of the people you’re worried about here, but if I am, let me know and I’ll rethink my approach. I would like to have a better technical term for you than “traditionalist”, though. Similarly, conditional immortality has always maintained that not everyone *will* receive immortality. We just don’t agree with you about what the words “destroy” and “death” mean when used in the Bible to describe the ultimate fate of the unrepentant.”, Even though, again, I can fill up pages with quotes of traditionalists—going back to the Fathers up to present day—claiming and arguing that the wicked will never die and that the wicked will be made indestructible and that the soul cannot be destroyed, etc. Torment already implies consciousness. Then sometime in the future, the person is resurrected, reunited with his physical body, and is then judged. . Er go, there won’t be an indefinite amount of time to repent. Unlike many non-evangelical universalists, who might even be non-Christian, evangelical universalists are not unitive pluralists, who believe that everyone gets to “heaven” (which has different names in different religions), by different religious paths. Having figured out that this was happening, I just dealt with a few items that were in the “spam” folder, approving some but deleting others which I took to be duplicates. I mean, think about it. Traditionalists believe that the wicked, who experience the “second death,” are forever conscious of God’s punishment, which never comes to an end. But this is precisely what evangelical universalists assert. Because they are evangelicals, they too are conversionists. Now, however, I fear that not all of those were duplicates, but they are permanently deleted. And it was, for the latter, a major reason for the eventual salvation of the lost: if they live forever, eventually they will be saved. What’s more, as has already been noted several times, a change in terminology isn’t really necessary to begin with. It is punishment with sanctifying effect in the end. Thus, both positions are forms of “conditional immortality.”. To clarify; I was the one who quoted Peterson, and the quote is still there, third comment down . Perhaps traditionalism is just a form of universalism, since immortality is universal. Pages upon pages of quotes can be produced—going back to the Fathers up to present day—of Christians affirming and arguing for the natural/unconditional/universal immortality of all men. While annihilationism places emphasis on the active destruction of a person, conditionalism places emphasis on a person's dependence upon God for life; the extinction of the person is thus a passive consequence of separation from God, much like natural death is a consequence of prolonged separation from food, water, and air. For my part, I've used, perhaps improperly, the word "conditionalism" to describe C.S. Animals have the same desire to survive. [p.14] C.S. You say a synergist (a believer in libertarian free will) can only be a hopeful universalist. Imagine saying you’re a 5-point Calvinist except you define irresistible, limited, and unconditional that same way. Simply put, Universalism asserts that the wicked will remain immortal in the purifying fires, but once they are purified they transition into immortal life in heaven. Conditionalists have various arguments they employ to support their position. The final authority for all matters of faith and practice is the Bible, and it is in the pages of the Bible that the final annihilation of the wicked is most clearly seen. Does it not seem important to you that traditionalists and universalists can only be said to affirm that “immortality is universal” if we give to the term “immortality” two different senses? Of course, traditionalists have always affirmed (quite frankly and explicitly) that all human beings are immortal in the *normal* sense of the word. For various reasons we find your conclusion difficult to follow. Eternal suffering or destruction of the wicked? A quick word on “conditionalism” vs “annihilationism” On this blog I will be using the terms synonymously to refer to the view that the impenitent will one day be completely destroyed. It’s only in recent history as they’ve been confronted by conditionalists that they’ve shifted in their use of the word. Spam filter, perhaps? I marked them as “not spam,” only to discover that there were then duplicates, which David Midkiff took to be his fault, but I think it was mine. There is a particular form of conditionalism requiring special mention which seeks to avoid the difficulties of annihilationism, by teaching, not the total extinction of the souls of the wicked, but rather, as it is commonly phrased, their "transformation" into impersonal beings incapable of moral action, or indeed of any feeling. One who quoted Peterson, rather speedily, was that Peterson was unwise to speak as had done will raised. 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